Curse

Jeydra · Dec 12, 2010, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Kurzicks have it easy. They have the shorter run to Yellow quarry, which is very significant indeed, and an easier time operating in the middle because of the diabolical placement of Archers. Luxons need to aggro and take continuous Archer damage before they can get to the Kurzick rear lines; Kurzicks can take aggro, deaggro (the terrain allows them to) and then operate without retribution. Kurzicks can gank green quarry at spellcasting range from the top of the bridge, Luxons can't do the same to purple quarry. Purple juggernaut has a smaller walk distance compared to green turtle, which is why Kurzicks always get the first point of the game. It also means Kurzicks have shorter lengths to run on respawn. In short, the entire arena is heavily biased towards Kurzicks.

I hazard this advantage is worth about 3-4 points over the length of ~15 minutes. I played a game earlier today which, although I won 10-5, would easily have been 10-1 if I had the Kurzick side with all other things being equal. In a map where you win if you get to 10 points, this advantage is absolutely massive. It is a big reason why I win ~90% of my games on the Kurzick side, but less than 50% on the Luxon side. Skill level does play a part, as does the number of bots, but this is more important in my opinion.

If nothing changes, small wonder why there are so many Luxon bots in JQ, and why all the good Luxons play AB. Please fix the map, or award the Luxon side 4 points at the start, or let them play with 10 players against 8 Kurzicks, or something.

Kumu Honua · Dec 12, 2010, 11:40 AM // 11:40

While there most certainly are things to fix in Jade Quarry. Your analysis I find lacking and completely biased.

I would start with the archers on yellow side. Either fix it so that the luxon archers will fire on the yellow juggernaut by moving them into correct position, or move the kurzick archers so that they will not fire on the yellow turtle.

rkubik · Dec 12, 2010, 01:10 PM // 13:10

while I agree with the above post about there are things that need to be fixed in JQ, but the OP makes it sound like the chances of the Luxons winning is useless and the Kurzicks have these huge advantages

I believe that the OP has just gotten on some bad teams. I can go to JQ just about anytime and I have consistently come away with streaks of wins. While I don't win every match I would say that when I play the Luxon side wins the majority (mainly during the day on the weekdays). I would say the real problems in JQ are botting which has been battered to death in the forums and the leavers which not really sure how that can be battled.

I would say work on your strategy to combat some of the issues that you are dealing with and just have fun.

SpyderArachnid · Dec 12, 2010, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If nothing changes, small wonder why there are so many Luxon bots in JQ, and why all the good Luxons play AB. Please fix the map, or award the Luxon side 4 points at the start, or let them play with 10 players against 8 Kurzicks, or something.

It seems you have never played Kurzick side at all, and are just upset about losing in Luxon side. You think you have an unfair advantage, yet you've never played the other side, making your post rather biased.

And I can't even take your post seriously when you say "Give Luxon more points at the start" Or "Let Luxon have 10 players versus 8 Kurzick". Really? If that is seriously your suggestion to fixing the problem, then you have no idea.

So, /notsigned till you actually do a bit more research.

Mr Decembe R · Dec 12, 2010, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Kurzicks have it easy. They have the shorter run to Yellow quarry, which is very significant indeed,

I would hardly call it significant. An advantage, slightly. But, not significant. I've played plenty of games where Luxons have gotten to yellow first, when sins use Dash or in the case where Kurzicks didn't use any speed boost at all. In the games I usually play, Kurzicks get 1 point and then Luxons end up capping Yellow shortly afterwards. But, yes. There is a VERY SLIGHT probably about a 2 inch margin where Kurzick is at a shorter length to travel.

*Plus, it takes about 6 seconds at moving 25% faster just for Kurzicks to get to the portals.

Quote:

and an easier time operating in the middle because of the diabolical placement of Archers.

That "diabolical placement of arches" makes it so green doesn't score for kurzick 8/10 times.

Quote:

Luxons need to aggro and take continuous Archer damage before they can get to the Kurzick rear lines; Kurzicks can take aggro, deaggro (the terrain allows them to) and then operate without retribution

Not true at all.

Quote:

Kurzicks can gank green quarry at spellcasting range from the top of the bridge, Luxons can't do the same to purple quarry.

Luxons can do it from a few places. That little rock where the kurzick green spawn is, and to the side of the quarry coming up from Green.

Quote:

Purple juggernaut has a smaller walk distance compared to green turtle, which is why Kurzicks always get the first point of the game.

This technically is right, but its <1 second.

Quote:

It also means Kurzicks have shorter lengths to run on respawn. In short, the entire arena is heavily biased towards Kurzicks.

Again, hardly worth noticing. Especially when farcasters come into the equation because that distance isn't even ran.

*Plus, it takes Kurzicks 6 seconds at moving 25% faster just to get out of their base.

Quote:

I hazard this advantage is worth about 3-4 points over the length of ~15 minutes. It is a big reason why I win ~90% of my games on the Kurzick side, but less than 50% on the Luxon side. Skill level does play a part, as does the number of bots, but this is more important in my opinion.

JQ games never last 15 minutes. Most of them last around 8 minutes.

So cut your "nothing short of a guess" in half and that means Kurzicks are scoring about 1.5-2 points more than Luxons / game (*ignoring all skills and player abilities) Now, figure in skills such as Make Haste and Fall Back, and that even more lessens that 1.5-2 points. Now, figure in player abilities. The "advantage" is hardly noticeable.

*PLUS, it takes Kurzicks a god long time to just run out of their base.

Ninja Dude · Dec 12, 2010, 04:17 PM // 16:17

When I played on the Luxon side, my team consistantly destroyed the kurzicks over and over again. As soon as the kurzicks get lots of good players on thier teams, that's when they need to fix the problems with JQ. I do agree with the part about yellow archers though, thats an extremely unfair advantage no matter how good or bad the teams are. They really need to fix that.

newbie_of_doom · Dec 12, 2010, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Kurzicks have it easy. They have the shorter run to Yellow quarry, which is very significant indeed, and an easier time operating in the middle because of the diabolical placement of Archers. Luxons need to aggro and take continuous Archer damage before they can get to the Kurzick rear lines; Kurzicks can take aggro, deaggro (the terrain allows them to) and then operate without retribution. Kurzicks can gank green quarry at spellcasting range from the top of the bridge, Luxons can't do the same to purple quarry. Purple juggernaut has a smaller walk distance compared to green turtle, which is why Kurzicks always get the first point of the game. It also means Kurzicks have shorter lengths to run on respawn. In short, the entire arena is heavily biased towards Kurzicks.

I hazard this advantage is worth about 3-4 points over the length of ~15 minutes. I played a game earlier today which, although I won 10-5, would easily have been 10-1 if I had the Kurzick side with all other things being equal. In a map where you win if you get to 10 points, this advantage is absolutely massive. It is a big reason why I win ~90% of my games on the Kurzick side, but less than 50% on the Luxon side. Skill level does play a part, as does the number of bots, but this is more important in my opinion.

If nothing changes, small wonder why there are so many Luxon bots in JQ, and why all the good Luxons play AB. Please fix the map, or award the Luxon side 4 points at the start, or let them play with 10 players against 8 Kurzicks, or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumu Honua

While there most certainly are things to fix in Jade Quarry. Your analysis I find lacking and completely biased.

I would start with the archers on yellow side. Either fix it so that the luxon archers will fire on the yellow juggernaut by moving them into correct position, or move the kurzick archers so that they will not fire on the yellow turtle.

We're not doing rocket science here. His analysis is solid enough, besides I already know all of this to be true. It should be fix, it gives ridicilous advantages to the kurzick side. Of course, his numerical conclusions are ridicilous.

Also, there is similar things going on in AB. I bet it is on more maps than saltspray, but then it is hard to notice. The battle cry shrine on the kurzick side is closer to the base than the one luxon side is to their base.
These small advantages are absolutely significant.

Not to mention kurzicks win in a draw! In AB, that is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkubik

while I agree with the above post about there are things that need to be fixed in JQ, but the OP makes it sound like the chances of the Luxons winning is useless and the Kurzicks have these huge advantages

I believe that the OP has just gotten on some bad teams. I can go to JQ just about anytime and I have consistently come away with streaks of wins. While I don't win every match I would say that when I play the Luxon side wins the majority (mainly during the day on the weekdays). I would say the real problems in JQ are botting which has been battered to death in the forums and the leavers which not really sure how that can be battled.

I would say work on your strategy to combat some of the issues that you are dealing with and just have fun.

This does not mean that the game is fair. If a professional soccer player plays soccer against you in solo, while your friends are on his team, he will win. Does this sound like a fair set-up?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Dude

When I played on the Luxon side, my team consistantly destroyed the kurzicks over and over again. As soon as the kurzicks get lots of good players on thier teams, that's when they need to fix the problems with JQ. I do agree with the part about yellow archers though, thats an extremely unfair advantage no matter how good or bad the teams are. They reallyneed to fix that.

True. This is the most significant advantage to kurzicks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpyderArachnid

It seems you have never played Kurzick side at all, and are just upset about losing in Luxon side. You think you have an unfair advantage, yet you've never played the other side, making your post rather biased.

And I can't even take your post seriously when you say "Give Luxon more points at the start" Or "Let Luxon have 10 players versus 8 Kurzick". Really? If that is seriously your suggestion to fixing the problem, then you have no idea.

So, /notsigned till you actually do a bit more research.

How did you conclude he never played on the luxon side? I didn't find that anywhere. In fact, I found the exact opposite: "It is a big reason why I win ~90% of my games on the Kurzick side, but less than 50% on the Luxon side."
You are good at selective reading, Spyder.

/signed

own age myname · Dec 12, 2010, 05:33 PM // 17:33

I seem to win a lot as a Luxon. Probably because I'm smart and always take out the Kurzick main quarry as a Ranger.

Balky · Dec 12, 2010, 05:35 PM // 17:35

The only things that need adjusting in the JQ map are as follows

Reposition Far Shot point on Kurzick side of Yellow Quarry

Remove the Jade rock on approach from Luxon yellow spawn to yellow quarry, there isn`t one on the Kurzick side and its something we actually have to maneuver to avoid when heading for yellow.

Micro reposition of Green Quarry to even up times between green turtle and purple jug.

Award the Luxons a win in a tie, its our home turf after all ! Compared to FA which actually gives the Kurz a bigger advantage as the ' home ' team, JQ is far more open.

As for your point about the bots, the reason they`re nearly all on the Lux side is simple.....vastly shorter wait times to get ingame. They`re used to farm Balt points for Z keys to sell online so the more games they get in the better, from the view of the bot user anyway.

newbie_of_doom · Dec 12, 2010, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by own age myname

I seem to win a lot as a Luxon. Probably because I'm smart and always take out the Kurzick main quarry as a Ranger.

Of course you are going to win a lot if you are somewhat smart (a.k.a. not retarded). Mostly, because most people are not (i.d. they are retarded). I win a lot of FA matches too if I play on the luxon side? You are not going to suggest that FA is balanced, are you?

own age myname · Dec 12, 2010, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbie_of_doom

Of course you are going to win a lot if you are somewhat smart (a.k.a. not retarded). Mostly, because most people are not (i.d. they are retarded). I win a lot of FA matches too if I play on the luxon side? You are not going to suggest that FA is balanced, are you?

I'm not saying FA is balanced....

I'm saying JQ is balanced. The small advantages isn't what makes the Kurzicks win.

newbie_of_doom · Dec 12, 2010, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by own age myname

I'm not saying FA is balanced....

I'm saying JQ is balanced. The small advantages isn't what makes the Kurzicks win.

Did you even read my post? I didn't say that you had. I was trying to point out that JQ is not at all balanced. And I was saying that winning games does not change that.

It isn't fair, that's how things are. The differences are significant if the teams are equally skilled, even if this never happens.

Morphy · Dec 12, 2010, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Archers not attacking the yellow juggernaut is the biggest problem. I agree with the sentiment that the maps need fixing so /signed I guess.

Missing HB · Dec 12, 2010, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Are you kidding ? You realize how imbalanced is mo/p roj build for JQ , not talking about match up 8 melee vs 5 roj monks. And you are talking about fact that archers not attacking juggernaut ?
I will /signed considering it's a game bug , but seriously if you believe that makes you lose games....

FoxBat · Dec 12, 2010, 06:26 PM // 18:26

The significant imbalance now is that luxons have a higher ratio of bots to people actually playing. I've played kurzick matches with half the enemy team being bots. "Fixing" that would go much further than a few archers.

Morphy · Dec 12, 2010, 06:29 PM // 18:29

It doesn't make me lose games because I play on the kurzick side and therefore win all the time. To give you an idea, Archers can easily kill an unsupported turtle.

ErrantVenture · Dec 12, 2010, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Stop taking the bait guys.

SpyderArachnid · Dec 12, 2010, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbie_of_doom

How did you conclude he never played on the luxon side? I didn't find that anywhere. In fact, I found the exact opposite: "It is a big reason why I win ~90% of my games on the Kurzick side, but less than 50% on the Luxon side."
You are good at selective reading, Spyder.

/signed

Yeah that was my mistake as I didn't see that, and I apologize for missing that. I'll admit to my mistake (unlike half of the people on these forums).

But yet again, no reason to start insulting me. Simple mistake. Try to keep it about the topic, instead of making personal comments on other people. Like I told someone else before in the other thread, unless my reading skills is important to this topic (which they aren't), then keep it to yourself.

Still, /notsigned for the suggestions the OP is making. They are ridiculous suggestions. Give Luxon more points to start? Give them more players than Kurzick? No. Suggestions can be made, but those are ridiculous.

Divine Ashes · Dec 12, 2010, 10:22 PM // 22:22

So, to sum things up, there IS a slight advantage for Kurzicks, namely the archers on the kurz side of the yellow quarry not attacking a juggie passing by without provocation. Other than that, there is no advantage for kurzicks that I have seen. Some attest to a slight advantage kurzicks have in starting closer to the yellow quarry, but I have never seen this, and it is often that even with a speed boost on the yellow side, the luxons still manage to cap first. I have noticed that kurzicks have to actually get to the central area of the yellow shrine to actually cap it, while luxons only seem to have to reach the outskirts of the central area of the quarry to cap.

Other than fixing those archers on the kurzick side of the yellow quarry, everything is relatively equal. And, saying that, those archers haven't been fixed yet, so I doubt they will be fixed in the future.

own age myname · Dec 12, 2010, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbie_of_doom

Did you even read my post? I didn't say that you had. I was trying to point out that JQ is not at all balanced. And I was saying that winning games does not change that.

It isn't fair, that's how things are. The differences are significant if the teams are equally skilled, even if this never happens.

Oh, wait, the tiny advantage that the Kurzick gets? It's not a big deal. If you're team is worth it's meat, and is better then the other team, they'll win, easy as that. No way the little bug on JQ is what makes Kurzicks win.